“All She Wants to Do is Dance” – Transcript
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SANDRA PARKS
You know, even though most of the time we watch a dance we see female dancers on stage, that many people think dance is a female-dominated field. But it’s not the case when you look at the leadership positions.
MAURICE BAYNARD
Welcome to Drexel’s 10,000 Hours podcast. Our goal is to mine the stories behind our region’s innovators, inventors, and creators. We’ll be talking to experts in subjects from dance to cybersecurity, to find out what lies behind the passion for their work, the inspiration for their ideas, and the motivation for their creativity. I’m your host, Maurice Baynard.
Sandra Parks is an assistant teaching professor at Drexel University’s Westphal College of Media Arts and Design. In addition to her work as a choreographer, dance educator, film producer, and editor, Sandra is also the founder and director of Women in Dance Leadership Conference.
All right, so Sandra Parks, welcome to the 10,000 Hours.
SANDRA
Thank you. Thank you for having me here.
MAURICE
No, we’re really excited to have you, and I have a bunch of questions that I’m really interested to ask. But let’s start at the very beginning. So where were you born and was there any indication when you were young that you would grow up to be a professional dancer?
SANDRA
I was born in Taipei, Taiwan. And I went to take dance lessons when I was young because my parents thought I was too short and, perhaps, in my dad’s opinion, that I was not as a healthy kid, by him looking at me. By all means, he’s not a doctor or a physician.
MAURICE
[LAUGHS] Right.
SANDRA
And so they sent me– it’s kind of like after school activities. Like, you’d bring home a form and you can pick either this or that. And my parents chose dance. And that’s really how I started.
MAURICE
So I’m imagining that, at some point, you developed a love or at least a skill for what you were doing. And do you remember when that was and what it was, like what turned the tide?
SANDRA
Yes. So in Taiwan, like everyone has to go through a– at the time, you had to go through a national exam after you graduate from middle school or junior high school, we call them, in order to enter senior high school. So during my third year as junior high school student, my dad and my mom told me that I should stop dancing for that year because I need to focus on academic work. I need to prepare for this exam. And also, the time, it’s just impossible for anyone to have any extra time to do anything else but study.
And during that year, I realized how much I miss dancing and how much dance means to me. I think it’s interesting you asked me if there was a moment that I knew I wanted to become a professional dancer. I actually remembered exactly where I was and when that was. So after I took the national exam, my parents took me to China to visit. That was my very first time. And we took this really lovely river cruise on the Yangtze River.
And it was one of the nights, that my mom got a phone call from my grandmother that I got into the high school that I should get in.
MAURICE
[LAUGHS] Great!
SANDRA
And my mom told me. And I remember I walked out on the deck of the really lovely ship. And I looked up. There were so many stars, and that’s when I told myself, I’m going to become a professional dancer, now that I have got into this high school.
MAURICE
That’s amazing. And did you dance in high school?
SANDRA
Yeah, so after my– so during that summer, I told my parents, I said, I’d really much love to go back to take dance classes again. And my dad’s requirement was a great average. I have to get a certain grade from my first year in high school, or my first exam period, basically. So I did, and then my parents were– they fulfilled what they said, and they said, OK, now you can go back to dance classes, so yeah.
So basically, during my high school year I basically go to school during the day, and then in the afternoons, starting around 4:30 or 5:00, I would go to this dance school right by my high school. I can walk there. I will take classes from about 5:00 to 8:00 or 9:00, depending on my schedule, and then go home. Do homework. And every day it’s like that, Monday through Friday. And Saturday, Sunday, I will get to do more classes because we don’t have classes in school.
MAURICE
Right. So there you are, you’re a really successful both a committed student and dancer. So how do you choose what to do in college, and where do you choose to do it?
SANDRA
So entering my third year in senior high school, I had a talk with my mom, and like– and my– a couple of my dance teachers– and what my mom came out of that kind of talk was, well obviously, you are not doing anything that’s like Chinese or Taiwanese-based dancing. My training was classical ballet and then modern dance later, just a little bit. And my mom was like, this is not something we are the strongest in Taiwan, then where should she go?
So a couple of my dance teachers suggested that I should leave Taiwan. And my mom agreed. I was really shocked that she actually agreed.
MAURICE
I was going to ask, were you surprised at her willingness to let you go?
SANDRA
Yeah. Well, I was really surprised, as you– I think– well, both of my parents are teachers, so I think they understand what education means to your growth as a person. And I think that’s why she agreed. And the choices were either Houston or New York City, because I have family at these two places. And I think it was a quite easy choice between these two.
So I chose to go to New York City. But at the time, I really didn’t want to go to college. At the time, I thought I– because at that time, in Taiwan, I was actually performing with a professional ballet company already. And I guess being really naive, I thought I could just go to New York and start auditioning.
And so I did enter a ballet school in New York City. And then I thought I would just start auditioning and become a professional dancer. And obviously, that didn’t work. And so I asked around. I was like, so how can I get this thing called a visa so I can stay and work? And I found out, OK, you have to go to a college, and then you can start applying, et cetera. So I started auditioning different schools in New York City. And then I ended up going to NYU because my mom, again, [LAUGHS] she said, if you go to NYU, I will support you. So that was easy decision.
MAURICE
That’s an easy call, right?
SANDRA
Yes, very easy call.
MAURICE
So I do want to talk some about the fact that you’ve combined dance with academics. So I wonder if we could pick back up the story. So you went to college and graduated from college. And then what kind of professional decisions did you make after college?
SANDRA
So after college, I joined a national– international tour of The King and I, the Broadway show.
MAURICE
Right
SANDRA
Yeah, it was really fun. And so I toured for a whole year, went to all different places in the states, and ended up in Brazil– it was really amazing– and then just moved back to New York and continued to do small projects here and there with my friends or with my other teachers. But I needed a– again, back to how do I stay in the states. I needed a working visa to stay.
So I was at a dance studio. It’s like a big dance studio that opens to everyone to take classes. I was a scholarship student, so I could– or a work/study student. So I was working at the front desk. And I forgot which– like during the week night, it was really quiet. And then this lady walks in and wanted to put up a flyer. And so I read it. They are looking for teachers in a school out in Queens. And the best part is that they said they will sponsor international teachers. So yes, the flyer did make it to the manager’s office. [LAUGHS]
MAURICE
Right, eventually.
SANDRA
But I’m pretty sure I was the very first one to call, and interviewed and everything. And then, I guess I was lucky I got the job. And that’s how I started teaching. I did not know I would actually like teaching. And really, fast forward, I taught there and then I later moved to Boston. And I started teaching with a nonprofit organization that does outreach in inner city schools. So I started teaching in Boston city district high schools.
And after about five, six years of that, a dance company I was working with in Boston, the artistic director was just talking, and then she said, oh yeah, there’s this college, Smith College, that our so and so, a former dance company member, was a guest artist there. And she knew I was looking for a graduate program. And so she said, you should go give it a try because they give full scholarship.
So I auditioned.
MAURICE
Of course you did.
SANDRA
And I was really happy that they accepted me. And so I went through the program, and then started looking for positions teaching in higher ed. And that’s how I got into higher education.
MAURICE
So I think that’s a good segue to talk about your big project, so Women in Dance. And I just thought I’d take a second and read a little bit from your mission statement, and then maybe you can talk a little bit about it, like what your thoughts were in founding it and where you hope it will go.
So this is what you guys have on your website. Women in Dance provides opportunities in accessing broader and more visible platforms, expanding the voices of artists, scholars, and strengthening the capacity and vibrancy of women in dance making and dance-related fields. So what was your inspiration, and where do you hope your organization will go?
SANDRA
So the idea of Women in Dance actually took place in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, where I was teaching there. I was the program director for dance at LSU at the time. And so it’s a smaller dance community, but when I first got the position, I made a– kind of made around, basically, tried to meet every dance company and theater in town. And surprisingly, every single director is female.
And I was really shocked, actually, because most of the time in my career you meet more male dance company directors. And subconsciously, I was like, well, this scenario probably is not everywhere. So I did the research on– in the US at the time, there are about 331 dance companies that are registered and about 82 or 83 companies with a yearly budget of a $1 million or more.
And out of the 331 companies, it’s pretty even. It’s about 45% female directors. But when we look at the major dance companies, it went down to about 30%. And so I was talking with this really great friend and also mentor of mine in Baton Rouge, and I said, well, how can I celebrate this fact that every one here who’s a director, here in Baton Rouge, are women? You know, how do I celebrate these women in dance?
And then– so for me, really, is to celebrate what the local community is doing great and also positive reinforcement. And also is to bring an awareness to, probably, non-dance related audience, that even though most of the time we watch a dance, we see female dancers on stage, that many people think dance is a female-dominated field. But it’s not the case. When you look at the leadership positions, we still have more male artistic directors and also male choreographers. And you look– and then later on, we have other researches done on major dance festivals and how many– or major dance venues in the larger cities, like how many female-directed companies do they present versus how many male-directed companies. And it’s always a big, big difference between the presence of male versus female.
And so that’s really how this organization started. And then– so to really think of a couple of ways to show this or to get awareness, the first thing I was like, well, let’s celebrate the work by female artists. So first thing I did was to host the conference. In 2015, that’s when we hosted the first one in Baton Rouge, by collaborating with the local companies and theaters.
And so we only presented female work, so as long as the choreographers and the creators are female. And we have a keynote speech. We have panel discussions. We have scholarly paper, workshops all presented by female-identified artists. And it was amazing. And in terms– and fast-forward to now, we have hosted three conferences now. It’s bi-annual, every other year.
And this year it will be the fourth one. Hopefully, we can make it in person. And the conference moves from city to city. And we’ve been in New York. We’ve been in Philadelphia. And now we’re moving to Chicago.
MAURICE
Oh, wow.
SANDRA
And in terms of my goal or where do I see, I think my biggest goal is to create or to establish a academy, a leadership academy, to really reach students, female students, who are interested in learning dance but not necessarily making them dancers, but to really teach them to see the connections between what they learn in dance classes with leadership skills, to create more female leaders in all fields, not just dance, but in all fields. That would be my ultimate goal.
MAURICE
This might be really obvious, so I apologize. But I’m wondering about your research that demonstrates that the more well financed a dance company or dance production is, the more likely that there’s a man at the top. I wonder, like, what are some of the social drivers that you think cause that to be true? And are things changing?
SANDRA
Well, if you look at the history, so in Western European countries, most of the major dance companies in the history were state-sanctioned companies, in Europe. So that means whoever is in charge of the government will be, most likely, be able to appoint the person in charge of these dance companies. And then the very first privately owned dance company in the history, supposedly, it’s a ballet company in Russia and was owned by a man.
And I’m not sure if that was just the reason. And I think this– also, a lot of the choreographers, they were also appointed by the company’s directors. So then the choreographers were male. And then this kind of, I guess, snowball effect, that goes down to today.
Now, the question is, is it changed? Is it improving? Is it getting better? I do see a change towards the positive side. The speed of the change, in my opinion, is too slow. But everything is always too slow for me. So I can’t judge that very neutrally on that. But there, definitely– I think the awareness is definitely more, and companies are now more conscious about what they do and how they choose their next directors.
And I think a lot of major dance festivals also used to be directed by male directors. They are now also having female directorships. So I think it is definitely moving towards the right direction. And I’m just hoping to see it happen a lot quicker and a lot more.
MAURICE
Hmm. So in thinking about the way in which careers evolve over time, could you talk a little bit about what women– what options are currently open to women, once their dance careers as performers are over, and where you think it should– what kinds of opportunities should be offered to them, and how they can create more and more of those opportunities.
SANDRA
Well, I– I’m going to have to guess, because I don’t– there’s not a research done on this yet. Obviously, I’m going to talk about more of my personal experiences and also my friends’ experiences. I will say most of the so-called retired dancers, they probably go for teaching, because their experience is so valuable for the next generations. So they probably go for teaching.
Or if they go back to school, then they go to a different type of teaching. They can, if they go back to school, they get– a lot of these professional dancers, particularly in ballet companies, they probably entered the company at the age of like 18, 17. They just finished high school. So they might be going back to college and then, eventually, go back to graduate school so they can teach in higher education, if teaching is their interest.
Or some do continue to work with the company that they used to work with, as like an administrator or maybe marketing sort of jobs, if the company are big enough to hire them back. And then after that, I really don’t know. I really don’t know what other options they might have. I think some do change careers, like they do something completely different from dancing, because they’ve probably finished at the age of what, 35? And they do go on and do different careers. And that’s also a possibility. But honestly, there is really not a data that we can say, this is where they usually go.
I do hope that as a company, the major companies, if they have the resources, and they should definitely think about what their dancers can do afterwards, whether it is professional development in other careers, that the dancers show promise or they show interest, or letting them do some classes through our Drexel dance program, online program, something like that, so they can be prepared and not restart all over, when their career is– when they take the final bow, so yeah.
MAURICE
Final bow sounds really final.
SANDRA
Yeah. A lot of times it’s because– they retire because they know that’s the for their physical being to be retired as well, so.
It’s such an interesting parallel with professional sports. And the time frame, where you’re sort of viable professionally, sort of overlaps as well. And I know that there’s a lot of concern that, say, college athletes, they make this decision. Should I become a professional? Or should I, at the same time that I’m sort of at my youth and my peak, should I make all the money that I can? I wonder how you would mentor a young dancer. Should they be thinking about getting a college degree and maybe a master’s degree or developing some other skill, because their professional career is going to be short one?
Well, I think it depends on the particular student. Obviously, with our students who come to Drexel as majors, obviously, I always encourage them to finish a degree no matter what, because they are already part of the curriculum. But if like, say, a student who is really promising, that you know that he or she can enter the professional world when they’re young, still letting them know there’s options of colleges or classes that they can take while they are performing. Because they know– we all know the career is going to be short.
Now, what they learn in these courses, or in these University programs, it’s not just to be a better dancer, it’s to learn how to take care of themselves, how to be a better human being, how to collaborate, getting to different subjects that will eventually help them continue their lives and not just their dance career. Yes, you can focus on your whole life on dancing, but I think life is definitely more than that.
MAURICE
Sandra, I’ve got to tell you, talking to you has been a well choreographed pleasure.
SANDRA
Thank you.
MAURICE
I know. I’ve been sitting on that. I’ve been sitting on that the whole time.
[LAUGHTER]
Drexel’s 10,000 Hours podcast is hosted by me, Maurice Baynard. Our producers are Shaun Fitzpatrick and Nathan Barack. Drexel’s 10,000 Hours podcast is powered by Drexel University.
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