“Your Homework is in Another Castle” – Transcript
[INTRO/MUSIC PLAYING]
VERONICA CAREY
But we do have the ability to change the world.
PAUL FLANAGAN
In my world, I’ve never anticipated easy.
AROUTIS FOSTER
We’re also trying to change the paradigm.
CHARLES COOK
We’re more than just a collection of hammers and saws.
KRISTEN BETTS
It is such an exciting opportunity to really change brains.
JOE HANCOCK
We always lose touch with common things that everyone uses and where they come from.
MAURICE BAYNARD
Welcome to Drexel’s 10,000 Hours Podcast. Our goal is to mine the stories behind our region’s innovators, inventors, and thought creators. We’ll be talking to experts in subjects from fashion to neuroscience to find out where their passion for work and inspiration for ideas comes from. I’m your host, Maurice Baynard.
AROUTIS FOSTER
We’re also trying to change the paradigm of what is learning.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
MAURICE
Playing computer games for a living may sound like a dream job for many of us. But Aroutis Foster has made the gamification of learning part of his life’s work. As an Associate Professor of Learning Technologies in Drexel University’s School of Education, he leads the Games in Learning and Interactive Digital Environments Lab, and is also the founder of the Drexel Learning Games Network.
OK, so before we get started, let’s get nsome preliminaries in.
AROUTIS
Yes, sir.
MAURICE
Do you pronounce your first name, Aroutis?
AROUTIS
Yes. It depends on where you are. If you’re in the US, people say, Aroutis. If you’re in Jamaica, they say, Aroutis.
MAURICE
Aroutis?
AROUTIS
Mm-hm.
MAURICE
OK, I want to try it the way that you are most comfortable with– Aroutis?
AROUTIS
I’m comfortable either way, because people butcher it 100 different ways.
MAURICE
So you grew up in Jamaica?
AROUTIS
I grew up in Jamaica.
MAURICE
So one of the things that we’re really interested in is the story behind a person’s professional fame, popularity– or expertise. So walk us through how you get from Jamaica–
AROUTIS
To here?
MAURICE
–to the place where you sit today.
AROUTIS
In high school– I went to high school at Wolmer’s. So in Wolmer’s, I was a science student. And there, you take a common entrance when you’re 10 years old, which is the equivalent of PSSAs here to go to high school. So I did that there when I was 10 years old to start high school. So I started high school when I was 10 plus. But your tracked. Tracking means that you pick your subjects.
MAURICE
Ah.
AROUTIS
So for me, it was the sciences. So all I did was physics, chemistry, biology, mathematics, geography– you know, no arts– no business– none of that sort of stuff. And I was doing that for all of high school. When I was 13, and I was doing physics, I remember one of the teachers saying, hey, in terms of electromagnetism, the waves come out of the chalkboard like this. And he’s turning his thumb on his right hand. And he’s turning his left hand. And it’s coming at the chalkboard like this.
And I’m there trying to visualize. And of course, you can’t see electromagnetic waves. And this guy’s trying to show you his thumb. So it was just completely abstract– completely losing me. And from that moment, I realized that, you know, there’s got to be a better way to do this.
And I also realized that at that time, science was really dull for me, because I couldn’t connect it. I grew up very poor in a community called Rockfort in East Kingston. So for me, you know, I remember even in an exam, the word antacid was there. First time I was seeing the word antacid. You know, and a couple of my friends who grew up in more affluent homes, that’s a regular thing for them. Oh, you take an antacid. I’m like, antacid? That don’t sound too good.
So for me, it was like science is just not working right there. So when I graduated high school, I decided I wanted to make a complete change. I passed all of my CHCs, and A levels, and that kind of stuff. And my first year at the University of West Indies– actually, I took a year off to work in a radio station. So I was doing communications. I was a technical operator, doing all the technical stuff behind the scenes– playing reggae music on Saturday evenings. It was great.
But then after a while, I realized I really like this. And so I started at the University of the West Indies– the Caribbean Institute of Mass Communications– Carimac, as it was back then. And then I realized that this is really what I want to do. So I spoke with Alma Mock-Yen. She was a director for communications at the University of the West Indies Mona campus. And she said, for what you really want to do, you’ve got to go to the US. And so there goes science out the window.
But science never was really far behind. It was always in the back of mind– I’ve got to make this better. So I decided to go to Brooklyn College. And they have a great program there in communications. When I started the communications program there, the first thing the instructor said was, oh, you’ve got to get an email. I’m like, email? Holy crap. How do you set that up? Couldn’t do it. So one of my friends said, let me set up your email. Set up my email? That was 1998 fall. All right. Set up my email.
And I can tell this– by 1999, I was doing computer science. And I was teaching people how to use the computers. So going from a point where I didn’t know how to use it, to a point where I’m teaching computers– working in a lab– showing people how to be– using the computers. And then I decided, OK, you know what– I’m going to continue to focus on computers because that’s really what I really wanted to do in the first place. But I’m not going to track communications in a double major. But then I realize that computer science is also– I don’t want to sit all day coding– what I’m really interested in is the visual stuff– the digital media stuff. How can I make this stuff more visually appealing for people? And so I did a double major– digital media and communications– a minor in computer science.
When I went to grad school, I didn’t know what I wanted to do in terms of the visual means. What I do know is that I’m interested in how people learn– ultimately experience a lot better. So I realized that, oh, simulation and games– that’s the way I should go. And I pulled on all my undergraduate degree experience and said, OK, these are things that are going to make things much more visually appealing, but more engaging for learners. And so I pursued that. In my program there, I was one of two people– there was another guy who was pursuing it as well. And he knew exactly what he wanted to do once he got in. It took me a year to find out– to go, OK, what I want to focus on is simulation and games– not just broad technology or online loading, so to speak. But how do you apply simulation and games in different spaces? And more important, how do you focus on play? Because play doesn’t necessarily involve a game or a simulation. And so from then on, I pursued that. I remember one faculty member said, you know, we don’t do that here.
And by the time I was graduating, he was saying, oh, leave me some readings. Because everything had transformed, in terms of how we engage students and the technologies that we were using. So I combined my background in digital media– add psych, add tech, computer science, and everything I learned in my PhD in terms of motivation, and interest, and technology, to morph into this– I don’t know what you call it. Now, some people call it learning sciences. No. But it’s much more than that. It’s this background of where all these things come together. It’s like a confluence in a stream– and then the dark water and the white water all come together. And that’s where I am right now– that kind of scholar where I tend to focus on how do we use technologies to engage people?
[MUSIC PLAYING]
MAURICE
So how are we using games and technology today– that when you first started thinking about this– like, back when you first went to graduate school, back before people understood that play was essential to learning, how is it that we’re using technology today that we totally didn’t even think about that as little as 10 years ago?
AROUTIS
So I think it’s a lot more immersive. So back then, people– and people still do– if you’re not in the field, you tend to see educational games. I hate that term so much.
MAURICE
What do you hate about educational games?
AROUTIS
No. You can learn from all games.
MAURICE
Right.
AROUTIS
Right. So I hate the term educational games. But I understand that educational games define a particular type of genre for people. And that was the Math Blaster– you know, those kind of games.
MAURICE
Whenever I see the word, educational games, I think–
AROUTIS
Boring.
MAURICE
–bad game.
AROUTIS
Yeah. And there’s some research done by scholars that I know, some of them who mentored me as well– all this research has showed that educational games are usually shorter, not as difficult, not as engaging–
MAURICE
Yeah.
AROUTIS
–not as immersive. So when people play games, they’re not looking for easy. They’re not looking for short. They’re not looking for stuff that’s not engaging.
MAURICE
Right.
AROUTIS
You know, you ask most gamers, they want stuff that’s challenging. So I like to say I like to build my games to be what are called pleasurable– in the experience that I call pleasurable frustration. You know, it’s like, oh, this is so hard, but I can’t stop. And I want to do more. But it’s so difficult. It’s so chall– hard. I want to do more. That’s where you want to get people. Because at that level, they’re not driven necessarily by the game. It’s their own internal drives to be successful.
MAURICE
So clearly, it’s not as easy as having a first-person shooter game, landing on an alien planet, and right before you go to take on the zombies, you got to solve a quadratic equation. Like, it’s not that easy. Right?
AROUTIS
No, it’s not easy. And so people tend to think that, OK, I can just take one of these zombie games and this map on formula. And it will work. But it’s not a one-to-one thing. It doesn’t operate that way. I think where games are right now is the designs, the experience, and everything completely tied and integrated with the curriculum.
So ultimately, where we want to go is, if you beat this game, it’s an A. Because you did everything that you’re supposed to do– not like a game that I studied back in the past. I’m not even going to mention the name. But this was a math game. And you’re running and jumping hurdles, like Olympics. And then a question pops up on the screen– 3 times 3– and has nothing to do with–
MAURICE
Drops dead.
AROUTIS
You know, and that’s a mismatch.
MAURICE
Yes.
AROUTIS
Right? You want it to be, OK, if it’s 3 times 3, for instance, then have people jump 3 times 3 hurdles– you know, something like that–
MAURICE
Absolutely.
AROUTIS
–where the play is connected to the content. The content should always– you know, in my philosophy of designs, the content should always drive the experience. And by content, I mean discipline. Content is whatever you want the person to experience. And you always use the word experience because I don’t like to use the word learn because learn is loaded. My thing is what you want people to experience. And then from that, the content is king. And then from there, you ask yourself, you know, how do I want to experience that. That’s the pedagogy. And then not just all that one experiences now. But the question is, OK, based on how I want to experience it, what’s the best technology? Right? Sometimes your best technology’s a piece of pen and paper. Right? So sometimes that’s the best thing. So you want to use the thing that’s best to deliver the experience you want people to have– not necessarily the best technology. Then you go about selecting based on that. And that’s the way I approach designing my GLIDE Lab here at Drexel.
MAURICE
So talk about the work that you guys are doing over at the GLIDE Lab. What’s on the books?
AROUTIS
So one of them is top secret, so I’m not going to mentioned it.
MAURICE
I like to believe that there’s a manila folder at your lab–
AROUTIS
There is a–
MAURICE
–with the word Top Secret–
AROUTIS
Top Secret.
MAURICE
–written across it.
AROUTIS
I keep it in my lab. Know this– you do not discuss this product outside our lab.
MAURICE
Don’t talk about it.
AROUTIS
Right.
MAURICE
We’re not talking about it.
AROUTIS
So my other projects is one called– in my NSF CAREER. NSF CAREER is a award given by NSF. It’s the most prestigious award to early career faculty to help them along. So for that project, we’re engaging and analyzing games that supports identity exploration. And based on these games now, we explore several exemplary ones. We look at the features that these games have. And then we compare them to a theory that I have developed called projective reflection.
And in projective reflection, it’s basically what define my experience. Like, you know, what do I want to become? Where am I right now? So projective reflection involves my current self. This is who I am. When you walk in, for instance, to sit around this table, that’s your current self, right?
But there’s a projected reality that you don’t know yet. So for instance, it relies on identity. The person you are right now is not the person that walked in. Now you know a lot more about my exp– what you’re doing. That has changed your identity a little bit.
So I measure that over time with students. They enter a classroom. And I want them to experience different STEM experiences, for instance. And there are certain underlining skills that they want to do. And I measure their baseline. What’s their current self? And I keep measuring that over time– a year– a few months.
MAURICE
Are these subjective measurements, where you go, how do I feel about who I am? Or are they objective measurements, where I look at their performance of a certain measure?
AROUTIS
They’re both. So you can’t be completely subjective, because you can believe that you’re a pilot, but if you can’t fly a plane, you’re not a pilot.
MARUICE
Absolutely.
AROUTIS
All right, so– [LAUGHTER]
MAURICE
I believe that I’m inherently a pilot–
AROUTIS
Yeah, OK, let’s go fly this jumbo jet.
MAURICE
–if I had the experience, right?
AROUTIS
Yeah. So we measure them both ways. So it’s what I’m talking about. So part of this NSF CAREER, we analyze the design features which exist in games. Now, we map these onto my current theory of projective reflection. And then we design current games that we want to facilitate new identities– identity exploration towards identity change in different fields.
MAURICE
Are you suggesting that through my interaction with the game environment, I could gain a skill or confidence that would translate into my real life? And can you manipulate that as the person who’s doing the design? I come in thinking I have no aptitude in science. But through my interaction with this digital– I don’t know, maybe I’m doing surgery– and I continue to do it until I’m really good at it.
AROUTIS
And you measure that over time.
MAURICE
And you measure that over time–
AROUTIS
–to see if you’re gaining the knowledge, the skills, the values– you know–
MAURICE
–that I could make myself more fit for medical school?
AROUTIS
You could make yourself more fit for medical school. And that’s the ultimate objective. The ultimate objective is that people may– so for instance, a lot of minority students, or underrepresented kids, for instance, they don’t have a lot of experiences. So you let them get in a virtual space. And they realize that, oh, you know, I’ve never done this before, but I’m actually interested in it. And by pushing that, you’re changing that person’s identity.
So, no, beyond environment, you know what they’re going to do? They’re going to go read books. They’re going to engage in different things that was tied to that experience. So that experience is a catalyst. It’s not the end-all. It’s a catalyst to move beyond the virtual space. And we still assess those things. So the idea is that you’re not going to become a surgeon, right, but what it does, it shows that you have the knack, an aptitude, certain skills and values that surgeons–
MAURICE
Well, and it exposes me to it as–
AROUTIS
–an area that you’d never–
MAURICE
–a series that I’ve never–
AROUTIS
–had before.
MAURICE
And I probably can’t walk into a hospital and go, hey, I think I might be interested in surgery. Do you guys mind if I try my hand at it?
AROUTIS
Put it this way, people who go to medical school still can’t walk into a hospital and do stuff. Guess what? They still have to do the residence and that kind of thing. So ultimately, that’s what you want. You want them to realize that, oh, I don’t know what it is to be an urban scientist. I don’t know what it is to be a neurosurgeon. But from this experience, I realized that I do possess some of the underlying skills, because the idea is not to focus on the career that you’re currently experiencing in a virtual space. That’s not the focus of our research, because we don’t want to tell people that, oh, we’re pushing them in particular careers.
What our focus is underlying knowledge, skills, values, affect, that are displayed, for instance, in people in engineering. And those things translate to different fields. And that’s what you want– try to let him expose a different skill set. And then eventually, people tap into their own interests. And the thing about motivation is that games, Sims, virtual worlds– they don’t motivate people. Motivation comes from people. What they do is they connect to people in ways that people didn’t realize before.
Because the idea for this is to pull something out of you– find something that you can connect to. And from that, you may say, OK, you know what, I really value this. I really want to pursue this. And value don’t necessarily mean, oh, I value this because the world values– there is value because I am personally interested in this. That’s what we are trying to get at– that personal interest– that personal drive. And if you can really, really tap into people’s own personal interest, you don’t need a game. You don’t need a virtual experience.
People are mathematicians not because it’s a game. They like mathematics because it’s mathematics. People like physics because it’s physics. Ah, you know, I don’t necessarily like mathematics. But if you ask a mathematician that, he’s not going to do mathematics because it’s in a game. It’s just because he likes mathematics. And that’s where we want to get people– to value the content and to like the content because it’s the content. And any technology that you use is a catalyst for that.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
MAURICE
So I have a pet question. And that is, so you talk about the things that you love to focus on all the time. And people are always asking you questions.
AROUTIS
Mm-hm.
MAURICE
What is a question that you wish someone would ask you?
AROUTIS
There’s always the assumption that, hey, this guy does games. Somebody asked me, what do you do?
MAURICE
Right.
AROUTIS
A simple question.
MAURICE
How do you get paid?
AROUTIS
When you get paid, what do you do? Do you just hide out in your cave? I’m Batman here, by the way. So you hide out in a cave, and you work with your students, and you focus on games. Like, you know what, I like to say to people, I focus on technology and learning. Game is only one type of technology– simulation one type of technology. I focus on technology.
And people don’t understand what this is for learning technologies as well. You tell them you do learning technology, they think you’re the IT guy. So it’s like, no, I don’t do IT. What I do– I focus in on learning and how technologies can facilitate that process in innovative and transformative ways. And that happens to involve games and simulations, and focusing on learning analytics and artificial intelligence– you know, all those things. And those are the things that I examine, and research, and study, for the long haul in terms of how do we prepare our kids to become self-reflective and can reconstruct themselves in the future? Because we know that in the future, no one’s necessarily sit in that job for 20– 30 years.
MAURICE
Not anymore.
AROUTIS
So the idea is how do I get you to understand that your normative experience should be one where you’re able to reflexively reconstruct yourself in a way that, oh, if I’m doing this job, I can draw on these skills. And that’s what my research focuses on.
MAURICE
So in your next reconstruction, what are you going to be?
AROUTIS
In my next reconstruction, what I want to be? So right now, we’re heavily focused on learning analytics. Because to me, for the kind of environments that I want to create, my next level is artificial intelligence– building artificial intelligence where I can, through this interview, for instance– my AI is listening to everything. It’s learning about me. It’s learning about you. Every time you do one of these, it’s learning more about you. It learns your interests, your likes, your dislikes. And so you can see that, eventually, it’s going to say, hey, Maurice, you didn’t do this.
MAURICE
It’s my coach.
AROUTIS
It’s your coach.
MAURICE
It’s–
[LAUGHING]
AROUTIS
It will provide a more objective direction for you. Because I want it to be known that human beings are not as objective. Human beings are fickle, are biased, and so forth. So this AI was more to provide guidance. So for instance, let’s say we’re getting little kids in schools. And this is the ultimate goal for me by the way. We have these kids who are going to school, and parents say, oh, Tommy likes to play in soccer. Tommy likes music. Tommy likes to build things. And Tommy’s using these systems at school every day.
And the system is collecting this information on Tommy. And it’s slowly building a database on Tommy. It knows Tommy’s likes and dislikes from home and at school, because his parents are putting in stuff about him. Tommy’s putting in stuff. Teachers are putting in stuff. And let’s say it learns about Tommy. And eventually, it can say, hey, I know you said that Tommy wants to be a musician, but the skill set that he’s displaying said that he should be an engineer. So it touches more to their interest, and more to an area where they have a knack for. And ultimately–
MAURICE
I love the idea of parents being in an argument with their big brother coach of their child. It says–
AROUTIS
Because, you know, parents as well–
MAURICE
–you shouldn’t be a lawyer.
AROUTIS
–when it comes onto your child, you can’t be objective. So the idea that when you start having these AI-based systems that’s collecting information from the virtual world, from the schools, from home, and so forth, it will build a database about your child– your child– likes, dislike, values, skills– all that kind of stuff– and be able to assist schools. Of course, there’s all sort of different issues with this. But we’ll cross that bridge when we get there. And now, a lot of my friends say I’m working on Skynet.
MAURICE
You are working on Skynet. I’m just glad that doesn’t exist now. Because I would hate for AI to just take a reflective moment and go–
AROUTIS
But you can– so I mean, over the last couple of years, it’s not so far-fetched. How many times have you used Google, and every time, Google say, oh, you’re X amount of minutes from this place. You’re like, I didn’t tell you that. Because it keeps tracking where you’re going every single day. It’s not so far– so the idea is I think that the more we advance our technology, the more what I’m thinking about is not going to be so far-fetched or so ridiculous for people in terms of privacy.
MAURICE
Dr. Aroutis Foster. It is a pleasure having you on The 10,000 Hours.
AROUTIS
It’s a pleasure being here, Maurice. And thank you guys for having me.
AROUTIS
The 10,000 Hours Podcast is powered by Drexel University online.
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